Helena Andrews explains why men should always pay for dinner. You’re gonna love it! Trust me.

9 Sep

A regular reader sent me an email asking me to address the curious case of “who pays for dinner”, specifically requesting strategies to avoid always being on the hook for the bill.  We’ll get to that, but first, let’s take a look at some of the justifications women trot out to explain why they think men should always ruck up for dinner.


The conversation has been in the media a lot recently owing to this new study that shows most women are incredibly happy to let men pay all the expenses in exchange for the pleasures of her company. Men, of course, are not quite so enamored of the wallet-rape, and would like women to pick up a few dinners here and there.

Consistent with conventional norms, most men (84 percent) and women (58 percent) reported that men pay for most expenses, even after dating for a while. Over half (57 percent) of women claim they offer to help pay, but many women (39 percent) confessed they hope men would reject their offers to pay, and 44 percent of women were bothered when men expected women to help pay. Nearly two-thirds (64 percent) of men believed that women should contribute to dating expenses, and many feel strongly about that: Nearly half of men (44 percent) said they would stop dating a woman who never pays. A large majority of men (76 percent), however, reported feeling guilty accepting women’s money.


Elizabeth Tannen at the Huffington Post thinks men should pay because women aren’t equal.  That’s a strange bit of logic, isn’t it? If women paid for dinner in equal measure to men, wouldn’t that in fact MAKE them equal?

She also thinks men should pay as a signal that he recognizes women must be pursued, wooed and flattered.  Again, not exactly an egalitarian relationship, is it?

But isn’t there power, too, in letting a guy pay? Doesn’t it, too, illustrate that our affections need to be earned, that we need to be wooed, courted, because we are worthy? Isn’t that also its own assertion of power?


Jezebel commenters trip all over the issue, too, coming up with the seemingly fair solution of “whomever does the asking does the paying”.  Right.  Except that it’s almost always men who ask, which means it will almost always be men who pay.  And it doesn’t look like that will be changing anytime soon.


Nice run around the tight end, there, ladies!

The comments for both these articles are pretty instructive – a self-declared feminist’s sense of being entitled to a man’s money is really quite astonishing.


Oh boy, this brings up a lot of issues for me. I am a women’s college educated feminist. My boyfriend makes at least twice as much money as I do. He won’t pay for anything for me. And yes, I have mentioned this to him. We live together and everything is split straight down the middle. *sigh* It would really be nice if he bought me a burrito every once in a while

Aesop’s Foibles

Ugh, the anal-retentive-about-money boyfriend. Had one of those for six long years. Never failed to piss me off. If we didn’t split the check, he would ask me if I had any cash for the tip. And he made around 50k a year! And a lot of the time during that relationship, I wasn’t even working. Needless to say, that shit got old real quick. For example, one Christmas, I was on unemployment. We were discussing gifts. He said, I’d like to set a dollar limit on gifts for each other, so neither of us feel like we’re getting taken advantage of. Meaning, he knew I wouldn’t be spending much, so he didn’t want to spend too much on me. Because that would somehow mean I was “taking advantage” of him. I couldn’t believe that shit!! It ruined my Christmas, that year. Boy am I glad that’s somethin I no longer have to deal with. Talk about stabby!!!

Seriously? This just blows my mind.  Ask a feminist about equality as she will “rah rah rah” your ears off, but ask her to pay her own way and suddenly she gets’ “stabby”?



I think this article at xojane on the subject takes the cake, though.

This is Helena Andrews:



Aren’t we all a little confused when it comes to the right or wrong way to date in the 21st Century?


Back in the day, I went out with this guy who refused to take me to dinner on our first date.

Why didn’t you take him?


We’d met at a bar a few weeks before, late-night chatted on the phone a couple of times and then finally he’d asked me to meet him at a Smithsonian after work. Apparently there was going to be a nearly sold-out lecture on volcanoes in outerspace that he just couldn’t miss. My “good story to tell the girls later” button flashed bright red.

So you don’t really like the guy and you aren’t very interested in science lectures at the Smithsonian but you still agreed to meet him after work?

Did you carry a flashing neon sign that said “looking for a free meal”, because you might as well have.

After said lecture, which was as wildly inappropriate for a first date as one would imagine, we walked through DC’s version of Times Square in pursuit of what I assumed would be food. Because, hello, date. It was dinnertime, past 8 o’clock, and my stomach roared angrily as we passed one cheesy tourist trap after another.

Why is a lecture about volcanoes in outer space inappropriate for a first date?  I think it sounds pretty awesome.

And you “assumed” food, did you? Because date? Okay.  No problem with that.  It’s the “free food” assumption that kind of grates.  You didn’t even enjoy the lecture, which I’m sure you were ever so clever to disguise completely, right? No sighing or eye-rolling or acting like a spoiled brat?

And now you think he should pay for your meal?

“Oh, tapas! I love tapas!” I shouted cheerily as we strolled by an al fresco pan-Latino joint. He grunted and kept it moving.

“Hey, let me buy you some tapas!”.

Try that next time, sweetheart.

Over the next five blocks, we lapped watering hole after watering hole on the long walk back to the metro and all the while I didn’t get why he kept shooting down every single one of my suggestions. What is this guy? An asshole or something?

An asshole because you haven’t offered to pay yet, and he doesn’t seem thrilled about reducing his own resources?  Wow. It doesn’t take much to be branded an asshole, does it?

Once we finally got to the train station — me hot, tired, and starving, him not — I just blurted out, “What is your problem?” “What do you mean?” he asked so sweet and innocent I almost forgot how damn hungry I was. “Um, I’m friggin’ starving. I don’t know what you’re trying to do right now. But I’m going to go get something to eat.” Clearly I hadn’t forgotten entirely.

I’m going to get something to eat.  She still isn’t including him!  What planet is this chick living on?  She really thinks he should be overjoyed at the prospect of spending his money on someone so incredibly selfish? And bitchy!

“Yeah, well, I have some chicken breasts and frozen vegetables at the house,” he answered meekly. “You’re welcome to that.”

He goes from grunting asshole to meek in the span of a few blocks.  Nice to see Helena not deploying any casual stereotypes about men, isn’t it?  He grunts. Obviously stupid.  He’s gets meek.  How unmanly.

What? I was so taken aback that I laughed, which in retrospect was a real jerk move. But come on, I hardly knew this dude. There was no way this Olivia Benson groupie was going back to his killer kitchen where unsuspecting first dates got deep-fried and I told him as much.

Well, she gets points for admitting that she’s a jerk, and for taking the sensible precaution of NOT going back to some guy’s apartment when she barely knows him. Maybe the deepfried comment was a bit over the top?

This is quite possibly a good time to discuss the difference between assuming all men are rapists and murderers, which is insulting and ignorant, and yet at the same time understanding that certain actions will make you vulnerable and it’s best to assume a little personal responsibility and stay out of those situations.

I don’t need to believe that all Mexicans are thieves to know that I should probably not carry my Ipad under my arm in Tiajuana.

No, no, no, he explained. He’d been on a budget — a tight one — and taking dames to dinner just didn’t compute. I was shocked and, more importantly, touched by his honesty. So much so that we continued to date despite me not being that kind of girl. The kind that doesn’t demand some good ole fashioned courting from the giddy up. I expect doors to be opened, men to walk on the “outside” down the sidewalk, and dinners (at least the first few) to be paid for.

And there’s that giant disconnect again.  Helena considers herself a proper modern woman, and she wonders why Steve Harvey wants her to act like a lady but think like a man, because she is neither.  She doesn’t read books, hoards Clinique make-up and fakes orgasms.  She is 31 years old.

helena 2

Uhm, honey, you are not looking like you have a whole lot to offer men, but you still demand a man’s protection, chivalry and money?

Why?  What do you have to give in exchange for that?


I know I know. This is so heteronormative. So detrimental to the fights against binary gender roles. So completely archaic and outdated. But so what?

Hey, what’s a little brutal hypocrisy between friends, right?

According to a new study “Who Pays for Dates? Following versus Challenging Conventional Gender Norms” most people still hold some conventional views about who should foot the bill.

This is the study I referenced above.

“Men (84 percent) and women (58 percent) reported that men pay for most expenses, even after dating for a while. Over half (57 percent) of women claim they offer to help pay, but many women (39 percent) confessed they hope men would reject their offers to pay, and 44 percent of women were bothered when men expected women to help pay. Nearly two-thirds (64 percent) of men believed that women should contribute to dating expenses, and many feel strongly about that: Nearly half of men (44 percent) said they would stop dating a woman who never pays. A large majority of men (76 percent), however, reported feeling guilty accepting women’s money.”

What’s most interesting here is how conflicted and confused and utterly contrary everyone seems to be. Women will “offer” to pay but secretly hope that offer will be rejected. Men say they’d stop dating a woman who never paid (so would I) but then confess to feeling guilty about accepting a girl’s debit card. It’s a rhythmless two-step we all seem to be doing with no dance teachers in sight.

Go back and read the study again.  Most men think women SHOULD contribute to dating expenses. Less than half of women report that they DO actually help out, and even when they offer, a significant chunk want their offer rejected.  Almost half of women are BOTHERED when a man expects them to contribute.

No one seems particularly confused, and the only contrary ones are the women who refuse to pay their fair share, or even any share at all.

For me, it’s about combating the “no date” dating culture that’s cropped up around hooking up and not taking names. Don’t get me wrong, if all you want is a Midori Sour and ride on the skin bus, then go ahead and treat yo’ self. But I’ve found during my unintentional field research on the subject that a good litmus test of whether or not something is a thing is if someone’s willing to plunk down the first of five easy payments. That sounded gross, but I’m being for real.

Five easy payments.  How do you know when something is a “thing” and not just a ride on the skin bus?

When the man pays.  Five times.

Okay then.  Do you let them know up front they are expected to pay for five dates or do they just have to guess?

Usually if I pay for dinner, especially if it’s the very first dinner out with a potentially romantic partner, it’s because I want to leave as soon as possible. Not that I can’t leave if someone else pays, but if I’m paying then I’m the one flagging down the waiter and twisting around in my seat for my coat. Bad sign.

Jesus Christ.  Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on your way out, peaches!

But when someone else is paying then I’m surrendering my time in a way that says, “What’s next.” All that logic, of course, is Helena specific and has been thrown out the window more than once.

Is he not also surrendering his time?  Why does that time have no value?

Case in point: The Volcanoes Guy. I should have known it wouldn’t work out. Not because he didn’t have the scratch for a proper first date (whether it be dinner or a damn ice cream cone) but because in the end it said something more about how he valued me and my time.

Another week or more went by before we actually sat down for a meal that he paid for. This only after he explained — in detail — about how he never takes women to dinner at the onset because he didn’t want to waste his time and money on someone he was just iffy about, which, of course, made sense but in the douchiest way possible. That same brand of bravado-slash-stinginess bleed out onto the rest of our interaction until there was nothing but red correction marks over the whole thing.

But…but….but…. didn’t Helena just say that paying for dinner FIVE TIMES is exactly how he shows that he’s not “iffy” about things?  Isn’t that SUPPOSED to be an indication that he is serious about the relationship?  Why should he shell out if he’s not yet certain about her potential as a romantic partner?

The only way this makes sense is if Helena feels entitled to ALL meals being paid for up to that magic number five, at which point she knows the relationship is a “thing”.  And then what?

So yeah, I was never in it for the free meal, but I was interested in being treated like I deserved it.

There we go.  She wants to be treated as if she deserves free meals.

Why you might ask? Why do you deserve anything?

Good question.  Really good question.  Why do you deserve anything, Helena?




Because I said so.

Oh my god, it’s too much.

Did she really write that?

Because I said so?


And if I don’t say so then who will?

Awwww.  No one to tell you deserve everything you little heart desires on someone else’s dime?  Are you single, Helena? I’m so confused as to why.  You’re so delightful!

Maybe if I’d been the one doing the pursuing I would’ve taken him out for dinner, but that’s not how this particular chase went down. Perhaps therein lies the line? Whoever does the picking up should also pick up the check? I’m not sure there can be any overarching rules besides the ones we make for ourselves, but I am sure that once you’ve made them, you should stick to them.

Well, if you’re going to stick to your rules, Helena, you should probably get a cat.  You’re gonna be lonely.  And again, creating the “rule” that the person doing the “picking up” should pick up the check is really sweet in theory, but when the practice is that only men pursue, it will always be only men that pay.


The comments on the xoJane article veered off weirdly into trying to parse why men should walk on the outside of the sidewalk:  most commenters agreed that it was to protect the lady from potential threats that might arise on the street.  His body is a shield she can use against runaway cars or pickpockets or errant bicycle couriers.

Interesting that very few commenters had anything to say about the expectation that a man pay for a woman’s company, and that her time is valuable while his is not.  Very few people want to discuss that at all.  Which leads me to believe that women like Helena are actually very common.

So what is a man to do, facing down these 31 year old shrews who think all meals should be free? How do you avoid that situation in the first place?

Personally, I agree that men should always pay for the first date.  But Helena and her fans have made me realize that there are two types of women:  women who accept a man’s care and see him as a potential provider, and women who feel like they are OWED money and food and flattery and chivalry and protection.

The trick is to distinguish between them.

There is a fairly simple, straightforward way to do that:  make the first date really cheap.  No matter how sad your budget is, almost everyone can afford a loaf of bread, some apples, a bit of cheese and a bottle of wine.



If you’re not up for even that amount of food preparation, scout out a hotdog cart and a scenic spot to sit in the local park, or along the river.  If you insist on a proper restaurant, check out the local Vietnamese noodle bowl shops and then pre-order two giant steaming bowls of delicious noodles to be ready when you set foot in the joint.  Noodle bowls are usually dirt cheap.

My first date with Mr. JB took place in a bathroom and we ate McDonald’s out of a paper bag.  That was memorable.


No matter how much money you have or don’t have the first date should be dirt cheap because it will tell you a lot about the woman you are with. If she gets pissy about eating hotdogs or a fresh baguette on the river bank, she is not interested in YOU.  She’s there for a free meal, and you know what?

Fuck her.

Any woman who sneers at a man who is careful with money is an idiot.  She is not thinking long-term.  She’s in it to grab as much as she can for herself.  And the expectation that you should spend oodles of money on her because “she said so”?

Run. For. The. Hills.

Never, ever try to impress a woman with money on a first date.  The ones who are there for YOU and the ones who are there for your money will be impossible to distinguish.  In fact, the more money you have, the more reluctant you should be to spend it on the first few dates.  Save the Broadway show and five star restaurant for much later.  The first dates are investments in a potential future.

Men should absolutely pay for the first date, and maybe even the second and the third and then it’s time to see if she has her priorities straight.  She needs to provide a meal for you.  Not necessarily pay for, but provide.  Not every woman can cook, and that’s fine.


What she needs to do is CARE.

Anyone can learn to cook or just become really good at ordering in, but it’s hard to teach someone to care about someone other than themselves if they really don’t. Providing food is the most basic way to show someone that you care.

No matter how otherwise great she is, if a woman doesn’t offer to provide you with food fairly early on in your relationship, she is not the right woman for you.  Wait for the woman who cares that you’re hungry and brings you a bacon sandwich. Wait for the woman who cares that you’re cold and brings you hot chocolate.  Wait for the woman who knows you are working late and brings you a warm dinner.

If you really want to make a friend, go to someone’s house and eat with him… the people who give you their food give you their heart.

Cesar Chavez

And always buy unsalted butter for your fresh bread.  Why?

Because I said so.

Holy crap, that makes me want to slap myself!  I hate that phrase!

But seriously, salted butter is icky.

Lots of love,


86 Responses to “Helena Andrews explains why men should always pay for dinner. You’re gonna love it! Trust me.”

  1. thehumanscorch September 10, 2013 at 02:33 #

    What’s the purpose of a date?

    1) To spend with someone
    2) To get to know someone
    3) To build memories & experiences
    4) To get free meals
    5) As a qualifier for a sexual act
    6) To vet a potential spouse

    …so it depends on why you’re there.

    If it’s 1) and/or 2), and you’re both trying to get to know each other, the amount of money spent shouldn’t even be a big deal. Or who pays. Because that’s not the point.

    If it’s 6) and you’re officially ‘courting’ or spouse vetting, spending habits & attitudes towards money are KEY. So are attitudes toward mutual respect of time & bodies.

    If it’s 3) I’d imagine you already have a relationship & are trying to enjoy it more.

    5) is prostitution and 4) is entitlement.

    So it would seem to me that you’d better get some sense of who they are before any dates are planned.

    • Stu January 11, 2014 at 15:27 #

      When I’m out with my lady friend I always take the initiative to pay (lunch or dinner) unless she insists on paying. I pay as a way of saying “I like you”, “I enjoy your company”, and “I appreciate you spending time with me”. No strings attached or anything expected in return.

  2. Mina September 10, 2013 at 02:38 #

    I have a very vague rememberence (I’m old) of a blind date where a “nice” dinner was involved (that didn’t happen often because it just wasn’t my thing.) I don’t remember the details but I got it right away that I needed to go dutch for dinner and absolutely insisted I pay for my meal (I always carried a $20 in my purse, always) and didn’t drink a drop of alcohol. The guy was kind of creep if I recall – he spent a lot a time trying to get me to drink (now that I think about it he might have been a PUA early adopter) and I couldn’t wait to get out of there and go home. I don’t remember what we did after dinner but when he dropped me at home, we stopped in front of my house and I turned, looked at him and said “ok let’s be honest this didn’t go well. I have no interest in seeing you again and I would appreciate it if you would simply stay here while I walk myself to my door.” He was incredulous and yes I got the sense he wanted to “go for it” – I was so relieved when he left. I have to wonder how that would have gone had I A. let him pay and B. let him get me to drink. Probably not well.

  3. Poder September 10, 2013 at 02:55 #

    Excellent article.

    I have found in my life that when I spent a lot on a woman, she has never liked me more. And when I have spent little on a woman, she has never liked me less. The best dates I have been on in my life, I spent little or no money on the woman and the worst dates I have had, I seem to have spent the most. Funny how that works.

    In fact, I live in DC as well and went on a date near “DC’s version of Times Square” (Gallery Place- Chinatown) with a nice young lady a long while ago. Based on her suggestions we spent a night walking around the Washington Monument, Lincoln Memorial, etc. during the nighttime. It was one of the best dates I ever went on (top 3 at least). And I spent no money at all to go on it.

    I personally don’t mind spending money on dates for a woman for the first few dates but once we are committed, she needs to start paying half unless I knew that she was unemployed when we first got together.

    My personal rule is to keep your investment (financial and emotional) low because you can never truly know whether a woman really likes you until you have having sex with her on a regular basis. Women these days have no trouble stringing a guy along for free dinners and giving him some lame kiss on the cheek while banging some other guy after the date. Keep that thought in your mind and it will discourage you from spending a lot of money on women you are regularly sleeping. Hence, no more than $20 on a date. Ideally, $10 or less. Definitely no dinner or movie dates.

    • jimm September 10, 2013 at 13:08 #

      The last paragraph is spot on.

    • joeblow June 5, 2014 at 05:55 #

      Most women want men to pay because they truly are the cheapest creatures on earth. Ever see a group of women split a restaurant lunch bill? I have bought real estate quicker. This is also the reason and excuse women make when they say – whomever asks should pay. lmfao Of course they say this because they never do the asking, so hence they never do the paying haha. Nowadays dinner and a movie $100 plus easy. For about the same money I can have sex with a hot 18 – 22 year old off backpage.com, etc. So why would I or any man pay for the potential for sex with some douche bag gold digger, when we can pay and get guaranteed sex from a hot young babe haha!

  4. Ter September 10, 2013 at 03:19 #

    On several occasions, after having met a woman for drinks, I’d insisted on paying the bill – simply because I’d had such a great time and just wanted to treat the person I was with. It’s something I tend to do when I catch up with male friends/colleagues too (who reciprocate on other occasions).

    The women, however, occasionally say something like “You know, it’s such a shame these days that we don’t just let men pay more often..”. What they explain is that, in their opinion, men are somehow being deprived or emasculated if the woman pays (or offers to pay).

    Each time I’ve had to politely explain that the reason I had offered to pay had nothing to do with gender – it was just a friendly gesture – more like a host wanting to take care of his guests.

    Anyway, my new term for the day: “wallet-rape”. I like it, will use it, and can’t believe I hadn’t thought of it myself! Thanks for that ;)

  5. evilwhitemalempire September 10, 2013 at 06:49 #

    • BG7B September 11, 2013 at 23:53 #

      LOVE IT!

  6. Ter September 10, 2013 at 07:32 #

    I just happened to come across this story in today’s ‘news’.

    Basically, what can happen when a man expects his date to pay her share – and she doesn’t…


    • Anthony September 10, 2013 at 16:26 #

      Oh, that’s awesome! The jury let the guy off!

  7. Clover_Grl September 10, 2013 at 09:46 #

    I’ve never really been on a date, and that used to upset me…but the strange thing is, my friends who go on dates are invariably the ones who can’t hold down a relationship.
    I suppose holding out for the kind of treatment Helena wants will always make things harder though, I’ve always just gone and spent time with guys I like rather than wait to be chased.
    My female friends look down on me, and think I don’t value myself highly enough, but they’re still single and I’ve got a husband, so I think they’ve got it the wrong way round!

  8. Master Beta September 10, 2013 at 10:23 #

    I always split the bill with friends. Why the fuck should it be any different with a woman I barely know?

  9. shoutingthomas September 10, 2013 at 11:03 #

    How do people get this confused?

    I pay absolutely no attention to ideology in my romantic relationships. Why does anybody care whether their romantic relationships conform to some ideology.

    Of course, my girlfriend is Filipina. I can’t recall her ever uttering the word “feminism.”

    My late wife was also Filipina. If you tried to talk to her about feminism, she was likely to ask you to step outside for a fist fight.

  10. Copyleft September 10, 2013 at 12:55 #

    It’s odd that when feminist women go to such lengths to demonstrate how little they value and respect men, that more men aren’t lining up around the block for their chance at spending some quality time with them. I guess men just suck. Yeah, that must be it.

  11. chefyc September 10, 2013 at 14:01 #

    Reblogueó esto en Los españoles se merecen saberlo, por la Paz y la verdadera Igualdad en España!y comentado:
    Add your thoughts here… (optional)

  12. Anti-feminazi September 10, 2013 at 16:18 #

    If you’re a young guy like me in the abysmal “dating” scene, you don’t spend more than a few bucks on your first date.


    Because a huge amount of womyn raised these days are flaky, shallow and not worth your time OR money.

  13. Anthony September 10, 2013 at 16:23 #

    “Am I A Bad Feminist For Wanting My Boyfriend To Pay For Dinner?”

    Only if being a prostitute makes you a bad feminist.

    • SK September 29, 2013 at 01:41 #

      Considering the popularity of the “slut-walks”, I’d say it doesn’t.

  14. feeriker September 10, 2013 at 19:17 #

    I was going to rant at length about this Helena creature before realizing that she just isn’t worth the time or digits and wasted server space (let me just say that the words “‘hood rat” apply here in bold letters, the laughably transparent veneer to the contrary [which fell off by the time she got to her sixth paragraph] nothwithstanding).

    The good news? The Helenas of this world exude attitude like a road-killed skunk exudes odor, which means that most men give her a wide berth without even a single romantic thought coming anywhere near their tortured minds (what I said earlier about certain women causing E.D. even in anatomically correct marble statues of nude men).

    My one question: what the hell was wrong with volcano boy? Either he was a momma’s boy who had never met a real woman before, let alone been romantically involved with one, or he had all the self-respect of a rusty car bumper. There is simply no other explanation for any man giving the likes of Helena Andrews anything other than a nasty, nauseated look and a middle-finger salute (I can only hope that volcano boy did one of those two things after ultimately breaking up with Helena [how the HELL did he manage to survive longer than the first date?]).

    By the way, Helena, a very good friend of mine (a middle-aged spinster, just like you’ll be in a few short years) who lives in the Maryland suburbs of D.C. volunteers at the D.C. SPCA Shelter. She’s a dog person, but she tells me that the shelter is chock full of cats just waiting for a home. Let me know if you’re interested and I’ll put you in touch with her. Given that cats have attitude that matches or exceeds yours, you’ll be able to have your pick of the litter.

  15. Mr. Milker September 10, 2013 at 19:27 #

    Good grief, what a fucking cunt. That is all.

  16. Ron R. September 11, 2013 at 04:12 #

    Hi JB,
    I pondered this awhile before I decided I must respond. Now this I am sure will get me some hate responses on the blog, but here it goes. We (men) pay, because women control 100% of the pussy. Now ask any guy and we have been saying this since we are young. It is true, women will use Sex and control of that resource for all kinds of things, to get a date paid for, free dinner, as a reward for us being good.

    When did we as men lose equality? I think since the beginning of time. Men want sex and a women it seems more then the women want men, at least at the purely sexual level. You see it on sitcoms, in which the husband/boyfriend is begging, denied, rewarded with a romp in the bedroom based on various behaviors. Does this set a good example I wonder for women everywhere? When did it become a gift to be bestowed versus something to be shared, that both parties want with equal measure?

    The same goes for oral sex, now I love it, both giving and receiving, and I would never deny my partner the pleasure if she asks, and I do it as a regular part of foreplay or an end in and of itself. Now the opposite view is held in mainstream media and with most American women I have dated, it seems to be for reward or special occasions, such as your birthday. What gives here, why is sex used by women as a power play? This should be as I said a mutual want, an experience of sharing, giving, and just pure carnal lust and fun.

    So to my fellow American males out there, date a European or other foreign woman, they are more open, tend to not use sex as a reward, and will even pay for dinner.

    JB, that is why we pay, even when poles show we would rather split or have the women pay. We are in fear of not “getting some” at the end of the date.

    Hows that for equality?


  17. A.T.B September 11, 2013 at 04:41 #

    First of all, I don’t know where the original author of this writing got her statistics. I wish people would cite them before they post. 69% of women expects this or 90% of men expect this. Where do you writers get this from?? It’s called sources. I think it’s an assumption for your own good. It’s 2013, not 1955 anymore where the men go out and work and the women stay at home before getting married. I think pretty much all of us know that’s the norm these days and I don’t need documentation for that. If I was married and had children, I would want to make sure I had the money to support her so she could stay at home and watch the kids (if this was something we agreed on) If a women ever expected me to pay for everything she would not be my first choice to date. If I had the money, I would do it. But remember as much as we may like or love someone, we have to take care of ourselves. If someone who I date expects me to take her out to a chain sit down food place like chili’s, applebees, ect every week then she must have some type of entitlement issue. I don’t want to spend so much on a women to the point where my car breaks down and I have to put it on a credit card because I don’t have the money to fix it. Especially in the first few months of dating when I don’t even really know her that well. I also want to be able to afford food other than packaged roman noodles and white bread. I’m a teacher, so if a women wants to have her boyfriend spend big bucks on her, then go out with someone that makes 80 grand a year plus. If a women would expect me to buy her everything, when she knows I don’t make grand amounts, then she has entitlement or self esteem issues and doesn’t see me for who I am.

  18. Emma the Emo September 11, 2013 at 09:41 #

    Haha, you can’t first say you’re a hardcore feminist and then demand he pay for your stuff. The poor man probably thinks you’d yell at him if he offered to help out, because it’s insulting your independence or something. Not fair to be pissed at him for not guessing your thoughts.

    The fact that they don’t like the outcome of their own rules should tell them something. But no, they’ll just blame the man. If your own rules lead to an unnatural, unloving outcome, the problem is you.

    Having said that, I don’t like stingy romantic partners either. They can be dirt poor, but they can’t be stingy and obsessed with their money and constantly feeling ripped off because I ate an apple they bought. Got enough of that from my mom’s second husband and it’s absolutely revolting in a person.

  19. Darwin September 12, 2013 at 11:48 #

    I agree and disagree with JB. I think, in the dating/sexual marketplace, one must “know” their currency before the date. Hypothetically, if Tom Brady and Giselle go on a date, Tom Brady needs to pay. Giselle supposedly has more money than Tom, but at the end of the day, Tom needs to man up. Giselle is a super-model. Men will “pay” to be seen in her company. It is a fact. However, if you are Joe and Jill Schlub, then, yeah, work out what works for you. I don’t think there is anything wrong with a beautiful woman trading her sexual currency (her beauty, not trading fluids) in exchange for a man paying for a nice dinner. Beautiful women should use their beauty currency. Men use money currency. Fair exchange, in my book. Beautiful women need to learn youth and beauty are fleeting; better develop some skills and a pleasing personality to enhance the physical attributes. Men need to become successful if they want a chance at young beauties once old man syndrome sets in. It’s really that simple. If, in the mating/dating game, you find someone that floats your boat, lucky you. You will still grow old and unattractive. Hopefully you will be happy and not care.

    The feminists and the MGTOW crowd want to pretend this exchange should be equal. It isn’t, and it never will be. Men want sex. Women want security. When a man doesn’t pay; it signals he offers no security. When a woman isn’t attractive, financially secure men are not interested. One must adjust their attitude to the marketplace that is at their disposal. Know your currency; that currency is not necessarily a money thing. It is very rare to see an unusually attractive wealthy man with an ugly wife, or a very beautiful woman with a financially poor husband. Yet, when asked, most people seem to think they are in the top 10% of attractiveness. If someone is having problems in the dating arena, it is because they over-estimate their attractiveness.

    Biologically speaking, women do not have the sex drive that men do. Biologically speaking, men don’t get all gushy when they see a cute baby. (I nursed my babies. Gushy is not a metaphor.) This “problem” has been around for ever, Cosmo headlines aside.

    Male species must show a female he is worthy of her sexual favors. I’m sure I will get flamed, but I still believe that. He should pay. Honestly, if women didn’t have a vagina, men would NEVER take a woman out to dinner. But once a mutual attraction is established, yes, yes, a woman should be paying her provider/manly man with all kinds of goodies, sexual and otherwise.

    And definitely unsalted butter on a crusty French baguette.

  20. Michael September 17, 2013 at 19:32 #

    My grandfather and father raised me to be a Southern Gentleman. As such I have a very traditional understanding of male and female roles, dating, marriage and work. I will pick the woman who is interesting and attractive to me (based on very solid criteria) and I will pursue her. I will pay for ALL our dates. I will pay for virtually everything when you are with me. You will be treated with warm affection, dignity and respect. You will never have to wonder about where I stand in such matters. I will make it clear that I provide for you, protect you and love you if you are worthy of that. But I demand respect and love and effort in return. I want a woman who wants to be a mother, a wife and a full time home-maker at least until the kids are 8-9 years old. I will do everything in my power to give you a happy and wonderful life together. But I want a real woman, a feminine beauty, not some brash delusional feminist who wants all benefits and no responsibilities………I did everything just as described above and now have the most wonderful wife that I could ever dream of, two great kids.
    The greatest illustration of male/female synergy is Fred Astaire and ginger Rodgers …. Him leading, her following, locked together, having fun, looking great, he delights in showing her off, she graciously LEDs him lead because she knows he is committed to her happiness

  21. Mckybitz March 14, 2014 at 09:14 #

    Sorry. This isn’t the 50’s anymore. You want us to pay for dinner. You better spread your legs afterwards.

    • judgybitch March 14, 2014 at 11:31 #

      In my world, you don’t pay for dinner.

      I make dinner.

      And you show some respect.

  22. Chas June 19, 2014 at 18:22 #

    I pay for dates because that puts me at least one notch up from the last guy she went out with (in more ways than one) and it puts me in control of a date. That adds up to more fun for me at the end of a date.

  23. paulvzo July 7, 2014 at 15:38 #

    In my active dating life I never paid for early dinner dates. In fact, I’ve never gone out for dinner until we (who ever that might be) had connected and were dating, for however long that might be. And those were treats for us, not some bartering dance.

    So, how did I succeed in having a long line of attractive, usually vibrant women in my (once upon a time) life? Simple: I asked them over to my place for dinner (or BBQ, or whatever seemed best.) I never, ever had any woman refuse, nor not come over. While I cooked, we talked, drank wine, got to know each other better……….and better.

    And no awkward post-dinner “Now what do we do?” moments. My date was already in my home. Very few chose to leave at the end of the evening.

    Same end result, a fraction of the cost!

    • judgybitch July 7, 2014 at 15:41 #

      You cooked for women in your own home and managed not to rape them? You should write a book. That isn’t supposed to happen. Women should cook for you and then you are supposed to abuse them.

      You are not doing patriarchy right.


  1. Lightning Round – 2013/09/11 | Free Northerner - September 11, 2013

    […] hypocrisy of modern women on paying for dates. My solution, I pay, but the first few dates are cheap. (Who doesn’t love […]

  2. Feministisk hyckleri | Yasers hörna - September 17, 2013

    […] But isn’t there power, too, in letting a guy pay? Doesn’t it, too, illustrate that our affections need to be earned, that we need to be wooed, courted, because we are worthy? Isn’t that also its own assertion of power? [källa] […]

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