Two little dickwads threaten to gang rape my daughter and have the worst weekend of their lives.

Talk about the rubber hitting the road!  You may have noticed a curious silence from me this weekend – allow me to tell you the reason why. walking So, Friday afternoon, PinkyPinkyPie, who is 11, was walking home from school with her little brother LittleDude and a few other kids from the neighborhood, as per usual.  The school is on the dividing line between two neighborhoods, one to the East and one to the West and kids generally set off in one direction or the other.  On Friday, two boys from the East neighborhood decided to follow the kids going West. Pinky and her group didn’t think much of it, but when Pinky left her other friends at the street corner, the two boys Dickwad1 and Dickwad2 started talking to LittleDude, who is seven years old!!  He’s in Grade One! They offered him crack. crack What the fuck? These boys are in the fifth grade, although not in the same class as Pinky.  She knows their names, but not where they live. “What’s crack?”, asked LittleDude.  How would he know? Pinky intervened immediately and told LittleDude that crack was a kind of drug and that he should not talk to or trust either of the Dickwads. She held LittleDude’s hand and they started towards our house. That’s when Dickwad1 yelled “we’re gonna break into your house and rape you in your sleep!”, with Dickwad2 chortling his agreement. angry Well, those boys picked the wrong kid to fuck with.  They clearly have no idea who Pinky’s mother is. I’m telling you this story because I want to discuss MY reaction, and not Pinky’s.  It’s a fine line between exploiting your children (oh hello, Shona Sibary), and referring to them as a useful illustration of an important issue.  Suffice to say, Pinky and LittleDude burst through the front door and told me what had happened immediately. principal My first call was to the school principal. My second call was to the police.  My third call was to Eddie the Barber.  I’ll go through each of these calls separately. The School principal is a nice enough man, and I’m sure his job is neither easy nor pleasant all the time.  Who’s is?  One of the more difficult things he has to do is integrate children from different social backgrounds into the regular milieu of the school.  As I’ve mentioned before, children from troubled or very poor families are integrated into regular neighborhoods in our town, rather than housed in some sort of council or ghetto. http://judgybitch.com/2013/02/26/the-lost-boy-or-the-art-of-being-a-grow-up/ Often, but not always, these children are part of distinct racial minority that gets rather a lot of bad press, some of it deserved, and some not so much.  This group is plagued with problems of substance abuse, lots of single motherhood,  physical abuse and neglect of children and sadly, a lot of sexual violence against children. And yes, the two little dickwads were part of this racial minority.  In my conversation with the Principal, I suggested that he immediately investigate the school’s liability in a situation like this one.  And I assured him that I would pursue that liability to the ends of the fucking earth if it came to that, which didn’t surprise him all that much.  He kind of knows me. I let him know that he needed to have the boys names, addresses, dates of birth, all relevant information at hand as the police would be in touch with him soon.  Our conversation was curt, to say the least. He wanted me to just let the school handle the situation. Not fucking likely. police My second call was to the police, who took the threats very seriously, and once I identified the kids as being part of a particularly troubled social group, they moved my case to top priority and dispatched officers to take statements from the kids.  I also asked them to obtain social services records to see if the boys had ever been in foster care, had ever had contact with the police before, had ever been the victims of physical or sexual violence themselves.  I also wanted to know if any close family members had been convicted or charged with drug offences.  How do we understand offering LittleDude crack?  Is that for real? The police assured me those were the first things they would do. Okay, so police and school principal are on it.  I should just leave it at that, no? NO! barber Not a chance.  My third call was to Eddie the Barber.  Eddie has been cutting hair in this town for 52 years, and in all those years, he’s met a few people.  If Eddie doesn’t know you, he knows your cousin.  And Eddie has long railed against the town’s housing policy of integrating poor and troubled families for precisely the reason I was describing.  He doesn’t think it’s fair to expose children from more affluent, stable families to children who come from wildly different experiences, because children have no way to process that information or defend themselves against other children who have had a much rougher go of things. I can see both sides of the argument, but my principle concern was to do a threat evaluation.  Are these boys talking out their asses, or is there a real reason to be concerned? Within 30 minutes, Eddie knew the Detective assigned to my case, he had the boys records from Social Services, he had alerted the town council and called a few lawyers to check on the school’s liability:  it’s pretty high. The lawyers also had some suggestions as to what I could ask for in terms of containing any future threats or situations against my daughter. Cost of legal advice:  zero.  Unless you count all the haircuts Mr. JB has gotten from Eddie over the past seven years.  God, I love small towns. It turns out that the boys have no previous contact with either social services or law enforcement and have never even been in trouble at school.  There is no history of drugs or any criminal behavior in the immediate family. The boy’s parents were completely appalled at their son’s behavior and were totally co-operative with the police.  Two uniformed officers went to the boy’s homes and scared the shit out of them. Good. They have received suspensions from school, and they have to write letters of apology to my daughter (which she does not want and said she refuses to read, and I’m fine with that.  I’ll read them.). Their parents have told them they are not to be in the West neighborhood period, and the school crossing guards have been alerted and will watch for the boys trying to cross the street. cro<br data-recalc-dims= ssing" width="182" height="277" /> But to me, this is still not over.  No way.  I want a meeting with the parents and the boys and the school principal, but it will have to wait until Mr.JB calms down a bit.  He didn’t think any of my phone calls were necessary.  Mr. JB, JudgyAsshole and BigMike all responded the exact same way:  little boys who talk like men need to run into a few men and learn a thing or two about owning your words.  They seriously wanted to find the boys and beat the shit out of them. They still do. I’m pretty sure they won’t, but god help those kids if they show up in this neighborhood and any one of the guys see them.  Of course, once the police cars were in our driveway, the whole neighborhood wanted to know what was up, and I’d say those boys better steer far clear of this street.  It’s not just Mr.JB they have to worry about. Now here is where the whole situation gets a bit tricky.  I’m angry beyond belief that two boys from seemingly normal families would dare to say such a thing to anyone, not just my daughter. It turns out they HAVE made similar threats before, but none of the other girls told their parents.  They just shrugged it off. That’s unbelievably sad. I want to meet with the parents and the boys and the school to have one conversation in particular:  WHY WOULD YOU SAY SUCH A THING? 

“We’re going to break into your house and rape you in your sleep?”

I think it has to do with bravado, with seeming cool and strong and powerful, and while I want to put the fear of god into those boys about ever saying such a thing again, I do NOT want to shame them for wanting to feel powerful and strong.  What those boys need is a strategy for how to achieve those feelings without needing to resort to violence and fear and threats. I think they’re negotiating what it means to be a man, and they have received some incredibly powerful, brutally negative portrayals of masculinity from the media.  I would like to meet their fathers and have a frank discussion about how these boys are interpreting what manliness means.  And you want to talk about rape culture?  It seems that the ubiquitous depiction of men as rapists has sunk deep into our culture indeed. rapist Twelve year old boys are already imagining themselves rapists. Feminism blames patriarchy for that, but it isn’t patriarchy that claims all men are potential rapists and should be treated that way, is it?  Zerlina Maxwell says we should teach men not to rape, which presupposes they just might accidentally rape someone without this important training.  I suppose we should train them all not to rob convenience stores while we’re at it? http://judgybitch.com/2013/03/12/zerlina-maxwell-says-we-need-to-teach-men-not-to-be-sexually-aggressive-all-the-other-women-say-fuck-that/ How much of this is a self-fulfilling prophesy.  Treat all men as rapists, and make sure boys internalize that image, and guess what you get? Twelve year old boys threatening to rape their classmates. How fucking lovely. And now that I have some personal experience with the matter, it absolutely boggles my mind that feminists rail against teaching girls to protect themselves.  Under no circumstances did Pinky do ANYTHING to deserve those boys threatening her in a very frightening way.  But those boys exist.  They live in our city.  They go to HER school.  They are out there, and while these ones appear to be harmless, some of them won’t be. Between the school and our house, Pinky has many, many people who know what happened, and to whom she can turn.  She knows now that she should never walk home alone.  She needs to be with friends.  Mr. JB and I have installed a private texting app on all our phones and she is learning to keep us up to date on her whereabouts.  We’re not going to severely restrict her movements to keep her safe, but we are training her to recognize that bad people are out there, as well as many more good, and that there are things she can do to enhance her own security and safety. The boys are under a school suspension and they have been ordered to never speak to Pinky for any reason.  They are not to go near her, and if they do, THEY will be the ones to have their movements restricted.  If they violate the school’s mini-restraining order, they will be forced to remain in the office after school until an adult comes to escort them home.  I’ll bet that will make mom and dad really happy. This is still very raw for Pinky, but ultimately I want her to see that the boys were acting like assholes, based on images about men and manhood that they see depicted in the media and culture all around them.  I expect her to gain some compassion for them over time, but never risk her safety by deciding they might be harmless to be around. They might not be, and she has some responsibility to ensure her own well-being by never trusting those two boys in particular, and by always letting us know where she is.  Pinky is a rather cautious person by nature, so I don’t think that will be a problem. It makes me absolutely sick to think that twelve year old boys have internalized such awful images of masculinity.  What kind of media are they being exposed to? How are they being parented? I want to meet the parents and take my own evaluation, do my own threat assessment.  When I spoke to the police officers after they had visited the boys at home with their parents, they felt the boys had little comprehension of what they were saying, were remorseful and embarrassed and that the parents were humiliated and angry.  Okay, fair enough.  They should be.  But until I have made my own assessment, I will be walking the kids to and from school. Ultimately, Pinky is OUR responsibility.  As her parents, Mr. JB and I are ultimately accountable for her safety and well-being. We can teach her that she did not, and never will, deserve to be threatened with rape or any other kind of assault, while still teaching her some street smarts. That’s not victim-blaming.  It’s victim-preventing. We won’t be having that meeting with the parents just yet, as it will take very little to provoke Mr. JB into actions he will regret.  At the end of the day, he doesn’t care how those boys have been socialized or what kind of damaging stereotypes they have ingested from popular culture.  They threatened his baby.  And he would rather kill them than allow any harm to come to his daughter. daddy I don’t actually think it would hurt those boys to see a little righteous wrath from Pinky’s father. You can be strong.  You can be powerful.  You can be angry. You can even be violent.  But only when you are doing those things to protect the people you love.  You can be all those things in service to others. Those boys couldn’t find a better man to emulate than Mr. JB.  At the moment, they will have to observe him from the distance.  Up close, they might find that threatening to hurt a man’s daughter can have some painful consequences. Lots of love, JB

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  • Liz

    Jesus, that fucking sucks, JB. :-(

    It is good to live in a small town. This would suck a thousand times worse in a large city because it would be much harder to handle (and the police would be less receptive).

    Good men react viscerally protectively. I feel for Mr JB, hope he calms down soon. I feel for you, too. I can’t imagine if that happened at our house…my husband comes by that Latin temper honestly! (es muy caliente)

  • http://reyekomra.wordpress.com reyeko

    feminists are the ones who for decades have complained about even the most mundane things like toys as sources for promoting gender roles and teaching kids from early on how they’re supposed to act and what their identity is, now that they’ve sufficiently saturated the world with the idea that rape and violence are inherent to masculinity and therefore boys role and identity that’s whats happening, bunch of hypocritical pieces of shit feminists are who have cultivated this culture where things like this can happen. It’s culture rape, not rape culture.

  • Vladimir

    Wow. Overreacting is an understatement. The police? Really?
    I find JB to be a logical thinking, intelligent person. But it seems to me the only normal people in this whole episode were the girls who “just shrugged it off”.

    ”Those boys couldn’t find a better man to emulate than Mr. JB.”
    I think not. Threatening to beat up little kids for a bad joke is not being masculine or protective, it’s just being an extremely immature bully. I understand he’s your husband and you take his side, but to held his and his friends’ reaction as a positive example is just ridiculous. Protecting your children is one thing, beating up other people’s children for being little pricks is totally different.

    I’m sorry if I offended someone. I hold the writer of this blog in high regard and I’m sure her husband is a good man. But I find it hard to believe that such a circus was created for nothing. I was expecting to be a “just kidding” at the end and an explanation of how the story was a satire. It boggles my mind how all those people involved could have possibly taken the boys’ tasteless jokes as a serious threat.

    This is why the US is considered to be a pussified country.

    • http://judgybitch.wordpress.com judgybitch

      My daughter is 68 lbs and very slight. The two boys, who are 12, are probably at least 160lbs each, if not more. I’ll bet there are plenty of 12 year old boys out there having sex already. These boys are verging on becoming young men. They may have the minds of children (clearly they do), but they present a very real physical threat.

      And the sad fact is that sexual violence in that particular community is very common. I can’t remember the last time I read about sexual violence against children that WASN’T in their community.

      It sucks, but that’s reality.

      Now add drugs on top of that. Also very common in this particular minority community.

      Those factors combined made me take the threat very seriously. Had it been the dentist’s kid who made the threat, I probably would have called his parents. because dentists aren’t really known for using crack and abusing their children.

      Which is not to say they don’t, but it’s not very common.

      The police took it seriously because A) we’re in a small town and we have the luxury of investigating threats because not a lot of bad stuff happens here, and B) the 80 – 20 rule applies in our town especially. 80% of the crime is committed by 20% of the population. Unfortunately, that population is identifiable by skin color.

      We have to guard carefully against racism, as a result.

      I think my husband’s reaction is pretty understandable. I’m not taking his side in that I think it’s a good thing to mete out vigilante justice (I don’t), but I certainly understand where the feeling comes from. We have good friends from Serbia, and if this had happened to Niko’s daughter, I’m pretty sure those kids would be recovering in hospital right now. Niko isn’t one for the police.

      He would probably consider my response far too measured.

      So I guess it depends on your culture.

      • Vladimir

        Of course it depends on your culture. That’s why I didn’t want to offend any one person in this story.
        I live in the Balkans and I must point out that your friends from Serbia are the exception. Here we usually let kids handle their own disputes. And guess what? They grow up to be real men and respectable women. Children argue, fight and sometimes say (what we consider) terrible things to one another. That’s what they do and dealing with these problems themselves it’s very important for their development. When I was growing up there were some parents who use to act like you describe in the story and their kids mostly turned into wusses and princesses. There are exceptions of course, but this is the pattern I observed.

        I won’t touch the race issue you brought up.

        • http://judgybitch.wordpress.com judgybitch

          Generally, we let our kids sort out their own arguments, too, and yes, they can definitely say some pretty horrible things.

          In this case, a line was crossed.

          I’m especially concerned given the huge difference in size.

          Generally, I agree that kids need to figure out their own strategies for arguing and fighting with each other, and the best thing adults can do is model good strategies.

          Although race is a superficial factor here, the real issue is poverty. Entrenched, multiple generation poverty combined with substance abuse.

          Any group with entrenched poverty will behave in predictable, similar ways. Not too long ago it was the bloody Irish who were the cause of all the social problems.

          The affluent minorities behave exactly the same as all the other affluent kids. It looks like these two boys are from well-off families who are responding to what the kids did.

          It was still reasonable to investigate the possibility of sexual violence/drug abuse since it’s common in the group because of economic factors.

          • Vladimir

            The neighborhood’s reaction is understandable if you live in a somewhat closed community, with kids behaving in a predictable way. I find it hard to believe this kind of stupid kid jokes (not necessarily rape related) are so rare that they would inflame such hatred towards the boys in this case, but I believe you if you say it’s true. Your reaction as a concerned parent is logical from this perspective, although going to the police was arguably unnecessary.
            Three points remain, though:
            1. The comments on this blog post seem to support my idea that in the US (or UK, which has practically the same society) people overreact to this kind of things, no matter what kind of community they live in (I don’t think they all live in your town).
            2. I cannot ignore my observation that kids who have overly protective parents and live in a sheltered environment grow up to be less socially adaptable than kids who learn how to deal with their problems on their own. You agree with this to some degree.
            3. Mr. JB’s reaction is indefensible. In your own post a while ago you argued that hitting a defenseless child cannot be justified. And now you support the thought of beating children because of some joke that scared some other children.

          • http://judgybitch.wordpress.com judgybitch

            I totally understand what you’re saying, and there is definitely a problem in Western culture with parents acting like their precious, precious snowflakes must never confront anything even a teensy bit challenging or uncomfortable.

            One of the main reasons we live in a small town is because our kids have the kind of freedom to roam and explore that is unimaginable in a big metropolis teeming with millions of people, a good percentage of whom are not to be trusted.

            Mr. JB and I often remark that our kids are having the kinds of experiences we had as kids. They have a healthy amount of freedom and I give them a wide berth, for the most part.

            But the gang rape just crossed the line, in my opinion.

            I do agree that hitting a small child is indefensible. I can’t stand that. And it’s not the thought of beating the kids that I support – it’s my husband’s right to make the decision, based on his own understanding of what needs to be done that I am supporting.

            And note that I said OUR child. Not someone else’s.

          • Vladimir

            Just one thing to clear up: I was talking about mr. JB wanting to beat up those two boys who scared your kids.

            Otherwise, it’s like you said: different cultures. I have a very good friend (alpha male) who lives in San Francisco and a cousin (beautiful, respectable woman) who lives near Los Angeles. They both constantly tell me that this politically correct bs is driving them crazy.

        • Liz

          We often do look toward the Balkans for social direction on what we should strive to be.

          • http://judgybitch.wordpress.com judgybitch

            Gah!

            I hope that’s a political science joke.

            I don’t think Sarajevo is something to shoot for.

            (pun intended)

          • Vladimir

            “The Balkans” is a big region. It’s not just Sarajevo.
            Socially, some problems are smaller than in the US. Feminism doesn’t strangle society the way it does in America and Western and Northern Europe. Maybe because there are far less public funds to steal.
            But don’t worry, we’ll get there.

          • http://judgybitch.wordpress.com judgybitch

            Good point.

            I’ve always understood the Balkans to be a flashpoint because it straddles the East and the West.

            Lots of ethnic/religious conflict. Add some corrupt politicians and a fragile economy and you have a powder keg.

            I remember watching the Sarajevo Olympics. I was pretty young, but I remember it looking like a perfect postcard.

            Such a tragedy.

          • beta_plus

            What sunk the former Yugoslavia is that its welfare state sunk its economy. Since you had different religious groups who didn’t like each other, when the money ran out they turned on each other.

            Seeing Sarajevo a year ago absolutely shook me to my core. Everyone in that region looks the same, speaks the same language, eats the same food, and shares a common culture. Sarajevo was famous for being a mix of Muslim, Serbs, and Croats. But the different religions and family ties were enough for them to commit unspeakable atrocities on each other. One of the museums there shows you the TV footage that got censored on CNN.

            That’s all it took. Imagine what will happen in America when the money runs out.

          • Liz

            I’ve been to Slovenia, and Albania…beautiful areas. Definitely not a place that raises pussies, I’ll concur with that. But the same could be said of thunderdome. The history of violence doesn’t begin and end at Sarajevo.

      • EMMA

        You opted to contact the authorities because those kids were of a racial minority. You used the example of a “dentist.” You said if the children’s parents were dentists you would of contacted them directly. What you meant was, if the children were WHITE and their parents were WHITE, you would of handled the issue differently.

        You couldnt of known what their parents occupations were, and you would not have waited to find out. Then you went on to cover it up by going into detail about “their community.”

        I don’t think what you did was extreme at all. I would of handled it EXACTLY the same. But I would of done so regardless of their skin color or “community”. White kids, black kids, brown kids? The police would be knocking on ALL of their shit if they made threats like that.

        • http://judgybitch.wordpress.com judgybitch

          Nope. The dentist who lives on my street is East Asian. I would still contact the parents first, because I would start with the assumption that the kids were being assholes and that there is no history of abuse, which would seriously trigger my concern.

          Most rapists/sexual abusers were themselves abused as children.

          The possibility that the dentist is abusing his children is NOT zero, but it’s significantly less than it is in a community with a big sexual violence against children problem.

          This isn’t a race issue, but I will accept that it’s a class issue. Poor people tend to have a lot of social problems, probably as a result of how shitty it is to be poor.

          I try to be careful about assumptions, especially negative ones, on the basis of race. But that doesn’t mean I would respond the same in one situation as I would in another. I am still capable of calculating basic probabilities, and the probability that these particular children were exposed to sexual violence was significant.

    • Liz

      Do you have kids?

      • Vladimir

        Yes, a nine months old daughter.
        I’ll be honest, I’m horrified of raising a young woman in this society. My wife is optimistic, though, and if our daughter turns half as good as her, I’ll be a happy parent.

        • Liz

          Oh, yeah! That is so good to hear. :-)
          I’m sure she’ll turn out great, good parents are 90 percent of the equation. But you might change your opinion about Mr JB’s reaction to this situation as she grows…

          Starting to miss Europe now (I lived for a time in Trieste, Italy, among other places…a few years ago). Not far from your area. Best place I’ve ever lived.

    • Goober

      Two 12 year olds murdered my 13 year old cousin. You can’t risk your daughter’s safety on the hope that their talk was just a “bad joke.”

      My cousin is dead because fucking idiots like you wrote all the talk off as ” bad jokes”.

      Jb did exactly what she should have done.

      • End them

        In my life I have killed during time of war – but anyone threatening my children, I would happily make an exception for regardless of their age. A bullet to the brain is a VERY effective solution to end such useless wastes of human life. I wouldn’t even bat and eye afterward, and would sleep like a babe knowing my children were safe and animals were removed. Sometimes you have to take out the trash – and those two are trash.

    • EMMA

      I’m sorry, who considers AMERICA a pussified country? We’re a pussified country because we dont take this shit lightly? Yeh, I’d rather live in a country who that does NOT put up with this bullshit- than, I dont know, Fuckin India? Or some other dump.

      And I dont think judgy bitch even lives in America. She is not American. Maybe she lives in england or canada, not America.

      • Xayadvara

        “than, I dont know, Fuckin India?”

        Every nation has problems – there are problems that fuck up India just like there are problems that fuck up America – the only difference is the texture of the dump and how it is spread about.

        All of us struggle in one way or the other – your Fucking America has enough to deal with and no one knows it better than yourself.

        No harm in defending your own – but not at the expense of others.

        • Emma

          I read an article about a 5yr old girl being brutally raped in India just a few minutes before I commented, it was still fresh in my mind. I didnt mean to point out any specific country.

          My AMERICA does have its issues, but we deal with it. And I think we’re still better off than any other country.

      • Vladimir

        “I’m sorry, who considers AMERICA a pussified country?”
        Almost the entire world.

        ” I dont know, Fuckin India? Or some other dump.”
        I hope you don’t expect to be taken seriously after this.

        • Emma

          The entire WORLD considers us pussified? No ma’me you are wrong. If anything, we over react. Funny, supposedly the whole world hates us, yet we are still considered the Land of Opportunity-for EVERYTHING. Even with our shit economy-people still risk their lives to live here. We are respected, make no mistake about that. What fuckin country are you from again? Dont bother, I dont give a shit.

          • Liz

            Being underestimated is a significant tactical advantage. I prefer it.

      • http://judgybitch.wordpress.com judgybitch

        Living in America is not the same as being American.

        I’ve lived in England, Canada, Australia, and China.

        Where am I now?

        Sssh. It’s a secret.

        😛

        • http://gravatar.com/grimghost GrimGhost

          > Where am I now?

          > Sssh. It’s a secret.

          I’ve figured it out: The Emerald City of Oz.

          The Wicked Witch of the West v. JB smackdown will be on pay-per-view.

    • Z

      Threatening to rape someone is not a bad joke. Putting the fear of God into these boys makes an impression. Shrugging it off creates a situation where they can push farther and farther… from threats to harassment, from harassment to assault. How do you think rapists BECOME rapists? It starts with disrespect and being able to get away with it. The hatred some men are developing toward women starts in childhood. They START with tasteless “rape jokes” in the fifth grade that everybody shrugs off because it’s just “boys being boys”.

      JB holds boys to a higher standard. This post is entirely in line with everything else we know about her character from her blogs. Rape jokes are not “boys being boys”. To believe that about boys is the damaging thing.

      Also, nobody is beating up these kids, but really… anyone who wants to play act that they are a man needs to learn what playing in the big boy pool is about. If those boys come into their neighborhood and behave in a threatening manner toward their daughter after all this… yeah… dude, those little shits SHOULD get the shit beat out of them.

      You cease being an “innocent child” when you make rape threats and try to intimidate other children. And you really cease being an innocent child if you actively continue to prowl and hunt after someone when you’ve been warned. These boys have been sufficiently warned.

    • http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/ Mike Hunter

      Glad I wasn’t the only one who felt like this. Calling the principal, then getting the cops involved to scare the kids; and see if there really is any danger is understandable.

      Threatening to assault 5th graders isn’t. My son would never say something like that to someone, because he’d have to deal with me afterwards. But if someone’s husband were to ever put their hands on my son, or even threaten to; they would have just declared war on my family. I would find them and make an example out of them.

      It’s funny how many people who aren’t trained fighters, and haven’t been in a physical altercation in years think they’re tough guys. We get them every now and again at my gym. They get taken apart with ease when they show up; by regulars who don’t even have malicious intent but are just trying to train; then never come back. Be careful. You never know who you’re fucking with.

  • Cassandra

    nearly every post i get from you i find myself going “that’s true, that’s true, that .. . oh, wtf”

    which is to say, there is, in my opinion so very much missing from the feminist and MRA dialogue. one so convinced that boys and men are just fine and the other so convinced that girls and women have all the advantages. le fucking sigh.

    but my question is this – since, from what i’ve seen, you put yourself squarely in the “feminism is the root of all evil” category – what part of feminism led the other girls to keep quiet. and do you know that they just shrugged it off or is it possible that they actually felt ashamed, as if they’d brought it on somehow?

    as a totally unrelated to the incident but totally related to theme aside – i thought of this blog when i dropped my three year old son at daycare and hadn’t realized he didn’t have a nap blanket so went out to the car and got his sister’s (the only one there) and a fellow three year old announced loudly, ” A GIRL’S BLANKET??!!! /// I /// WOULD **NEVER** USE A GIRL’S BLANKET” and i remembered that his older brother at that age was completely ridiculed by boys and girls alike for liking the story the little mermaid.

    • Wilson

      Girls have cooties, you ignoramus.

    • http://judgybitch.wordpress.com judgybitch

      You don’t have to ALL the advantages to have some very important ones.

      What part of feminism led the girls to be silent? How about the part that says girls are never responsible when they are raped, it’s only ever the rapist’s fault, there is nothing girls can do to reduce their risk and they should just rely on men learning not to rape them?

      That part of feminism that says women have no responsibilities is pretty destructive.

      I’ll be those girls were raised in daycares, too. Why tell your parents anything when it’s clear they feel no personal sense of responsibility for you?

      And how nice that you can see your son is in a daycare where he is ridiculed and shamed, but YOU STILL LEAVE HIM THERE.

      Nice.

      Good job at the whole parenting thing.

      • Cassandra

        i love how i ask a question that is quite sincere and interested in a dialogue and you get pissy with me. the guy above stops short of calling you a maniac and you all but apologize to him. hysterical.

        he was not ridiculed or shamed. another kid was ignorant and i spoke to it. and the teacher spoke to it. my sons are secure in their likes and dislikes and don’t feel the need to kowtow. if you can find a setting where your children never meet with someone being mean to them then good for you. i choose to teach my children how to deal with it instead of trying to shield them from all the assholes in the world. the world is a big place and full of aholes – i don’t see it as my job to try and fix everyone. that mentality seems very “feminist” to me – no? my older son is in 1st grade now and, in speaking with a teacher there i learned that there was a problem with boys teasing other boys for wearing pink or purple or something similarly “girly.” do you suppose i could find a school where that never happens?? no, of course you don’t; you just wanted to take the opportunity to try and shame me for sending them to daycare.

        as to your answer – huge stretch. i thought the standard party line was girls scream rape at any and every turn?

        ultimately this is where ya’ll lose me. any question – even after acknowledgement that you make good points – any question is met with vitriol. unless of course i were a dude saying that you were acting like a feminist.

        • http://judgybitch.wordpress.com judgybitch

          Awwww.

          Did you not get the female privilege you were expecting? The right to be treated with all your lady sensibilities intact? Did you get called out for a shitty decision?

          I don’t think this is the right place for you, Cassandra.

          • Cassandra

            i wasn’t expecting any privilege. i was asking a question.

            you have me so confused with someone from your imagination.

            i didn’t make a shitty decision. well, except for the part where i ignored my first instinct to grab his blanket just in case (should always stick with those first instincts). do you *really* think i should have said “my god! did that three year old just make fun of my son for a purple blanket??!!! i must scoop my precious darling away from this horrible ridicule and shame at once – for he will never be able to recover from it?? OH THE HORROR” seriously. wtf. now, had the teacher made fun of him – you’d have a point.

            but you’re right, it’s not the right place. i thought it might be because you address some things about the boys that threatened your daughter that most people wouldn’t. most of which i feel is true. and i admired the part about looking for compassion even when the threat is so very close to home. which most people don’t. and where you balance it with not forcing her to have compassion but hoping she can eventually get there. those things led me to believe that there was an honest conversation to be had.

            the steubenville case, and the vitriol around it, reignited my search for a dialogue that doesn’t chop boys or girls off at the knees. but – on either side – you must tow the whole party line.

            nonetheless, some of your points here and on a couple other posts i’ve read have a true depth and while your current responses to me are annoying as shit they don’t negate that.

            i hope everyone involved in your personal situation comes out the other side of this controversy stronger for it.

          • zornskin

            I think she’s replying more to the implication of… “I turn my kids over to institutionalized childcare(daycare) every day…” thing.
            I don’t think she’s really talking about the blanket.

          • Cassandra

            Ooooooo. I had no idea. Blinkblink

          • Alex

            yeah, she (as well as most who comment here i’m sure) are very against daycare

          • Fuzzy Dunlop

            Heh, I work in daycare and even I am against daycare(to a some extent, at least). I’m the lone guy working with 13 women. Sometimes I have to shut my years when they talk about their husbands, 😉

          • Fuzzy Dunlop

            That is ears of course.

          • Cassandra

            i know – i picked up on that. i was being a bit of a smartarse but i appreciate the “heads up” (not being a smart ass)

            i didn’t engage the comment because it wasn’t relevant to the discussion at hand.

            oh, and, as i understand it looney tunes has been deemed inappropriate for children now — isn’t it ironic?

          • Alex

            @cassandra, it does surprise me that looney tunes is deemed such, when pretty two if not three generations were raised with it. most kids nowadays should be made to watch looney tunes as well as tom and jerry, methinks. it seems we have too many violent shows that have actors in them portraying instances that supposedly happens in real life. as least we knew that that stuff couldn’t be done with the cartoons, and even the dumb ones weren’t dumb enough to try.

          • Cassandra

            @alex – i’ll go you one better than looney tunes. i bought the “old school” sesame street dvds – a collection of the (quite freaking awesome) shows from the 70s and the intro starts off “these shows may not be suitable for children . .. !

        • http://www.womenagainstmen.com Ter

          Cassandra, FWIW, when I read your initial comment, I was also under the impression that you were being hostile – particularly your 3rd paragraph. Just saying that’s probably why you got the response that you did.

          • Cassandra

            i appreciate the feedback but i really don’t see it. i see a lack of the normal “well, i don’t mean to offend but . .. ” but i honestly didn’t think that was necessary. in fact, i’d have thought it’d be a bit anathema to the discussion.

            if there was any possibility of hostility it was opposition to the idea that feminism is the root of all evil. just as i have like “hostility” to the idea that feminism has not caused any societal ills. i tried to front load with that to be crystal clear that was where i was coming from. so if it was read as hostile and met with like hostility to my ideas – that would have made sense to me.

            i’ve noted over the years that each side of the aisle tends to have conversations within a hug box. any dissent, no matter how slight or how it’s phrased is conspicuously ignored or shouted down. shrug.

            but thanks again for the feedback. always something to reflect on.

  • http://ruxmandotcom.wordpress.com Ruxman

    you got quite creative with the the aid of the barber, creativity wins again.

    • http://judgybitch.wordpress.com judgybitch

      Barbers are the most politically connected people you will ever meet!

      Seriously, they know everyone, and Eddy has the gift of the gab.

  • The_Other_Steve

    Looking back to my childhood (alas, all too many years ago), and remembering what it was like to grow up as what today we call a nerd (long before that term held any semblance of acceptability), I tend to see this incident less as a gender issue, and more as one of “some kids are just rotten little assholes.” I’m sure all of us knew a few, the bullies, the junior criminal league, the mean girls, or whatever. I know I had my share of encounters, and quickly learned who to avoid if I wanted to remain safe and happy. Parents were only involved when certain lines were crossed; Back then, those lines were a bit less exact, and held further back in people’s consciousness. Sometimes, things got out of hand. Nowadays, the pendulum has swung the other way, and what would pass as minor “way back when” gets greater attention. I cannot say this is a bad development.
    That the threat of rape has become so much more common is a sad sign that far too many of our boys are being raised unconsciously, without the kind of involved parenting that is needed to bring up respectable men. I cannot help but recall “Lord of the Flies.” Boys left to their own devices will create their own mythology and social order, albeit a primitive, immature, and critically flawed version. They need elders, and particularly male elders, to show them the way.
    As to the part feminism might play, well, my humble opinion is this: if you foment blame and resentment between the sexes, it has to go somewhere. Boys who find themselves on the short end of that stick, and they all too often do, will find ways to express their resentment and frustration, consciously or otherwise, directing it against others or themselves, or both. The results are never pretty.
    Finally, as a parent, when made aware of incidents like the one in question, the right thing to do is intervene, in as showy and forceful a manner as you deem the situation to dictate. To do otherwise is to send the wrong message to your own child, and to those who threaten that child, whether seriously or in jest. Good job there.

  • http://eruditeknight.wordpress.com Erudite Knight

    Let those fools knows.

  • Alex

    what the fuck have they been watching, why have they been allowed to watch that, and what in the hell happened to looney tunes?

  • Fred Flange, S.J.

    as the father of a daughter, I would have handled this much as you did, but here are a couple ideas to consider.

    Don’t hold out hope for a meeting with the other parents. They will probably be advised not to speak to you (that’s the way it is these days). But even if they did, you would have to have no expectation of satisfaction. If they are dickwads, then fine, you have their measure and you prepare accordingly. If they express genuine contrition, thank them and let it go. You will get no catharsis by lecturing them.

    Going to the cops, school and a “local authority” is precisely the way to go. You have to make a record of these things. I do not know your town, of course, so YMMV, but as a free-ranger parent I would accompany them for a while, see how it goes, then if things stay cool, let them resume going on their own, joining them occasionally at random if you think that best to mix things up some.

    For the men the audience: the best weapon a dad has – with his own kid or someone else’s – is not to threaten, or get physical first, but to LET THE KID THINK SOMETHING AWFUL MIGHT HAPPEN, and you are the guy to do it.

  • http://insideawomansmind.wordpress.com insideawomansmind

    I rarely comment here cause you scare the shit out of me, but firstly

    • http://insideawomansmind.wordpress.com insideawomansmind

      (Sorry, writing from phone) I just wanted to offer my kudos. You absolutely have my utter respect in all this. A threat like that is no to just shrug off. You made sure they had to own up to their behavior, protected your daughter (not only physically in the future, but also making her feel heard and safe(r) now) and you took every step needed to put your foot down. As a fellow mother, that makes me smile, all the way over here in Europe.

      The only thing I can’t help but cross my mind… And please know that I am -not- trying to compare it at all, this is tweens threatening to ‘rape someone in their sleep’. So brutal, its unreal. But what I can’t help but send a thought to, is the girl you wrote about some time back. Two guys were convicted of rape for fingering a girl, taping it and letting it go viral online. She should never have put herself in the situation she did, ever, but… I just wish there would have been a mother behind her, as you are behind your daughter now, I guess. Bleh. Again, Im not trying to compare the two situations, it just crossed my mind.
      All the best to your daughter.

  • http://gravatar.com/sqt72 sqt

    What sucks is that this kind of thing is kind of common anymore. I don’t want to helicopter parent but my kids have never walked themselves home for this very reason. There’s a lot of neighborhood between my house and the school, a park and (just for fun) a few registered sex offenders in the outlying area. And we live in a very expensive neighborhood too!

    It doesn’t matter if these boys intended their comments to be a real threat or not. You have to treat it as if they meant every word. I would have done the same thing.

  • http://www.facebook.com/roccim Marlo Rocci

    If I were a parent, my temptation would be to demonstrate to these boys how heavily armed I am. You know, to show that if they did break into my house, two body bags and several mops would be necessary to clean up the mess.

    I would probably be a bit over protective. And I tend not to react well or logically to threats.

    It’s a good thing I am not a dad.

    By the way, in my family the age we start learning how to shoot at is 12. Maybe look into NRA youth training for Pinky. If she had an NRA patch on her backpack, maybe these boys will think twice about talking to her again. I hear they make “Hello Kitty” AR-15s for girls.

  • http://none.com James Versluis

    And this is where we differ: spanking is not “hitting”, the same way being pinched on your behind is different from being raped by a stranger: your wife might *like* being pinched on the butt, thank you. No one likes being spanked, but then boys are boys.

    It’s why we disagree. Some boys (like me) are just rambunctious and need to be paddled when they go too far. I was paddled when I was young and NEVER beat, demeaned, slapped, made to feel like nothing, etc. I absolutely was NOT EVER abused, but I was spanked. There is all the difference in the world.

    These two kids don’t need suspension or any weirdness like that, they need to be paddled immediately, with a lot of yelling thrown in. The cops-principles-lawyers route has the problem of being both an overreaction *and* an under-reaction at the same time.

    • http://judgybitch.wordpress.com judgybitch

      Yeah, we’re going to have to disagree there.

      I think it’s deeply hypocritical to say to the boys “what you are threatening to do is assault, and a very serious one at that”, and then proceed to demonstrate that the threat of assault only applies one way.

      If it’s wrong for the boys to even threaten to assault the girls, how can it be right for the grown-ups to then assault the boys?

      12 years old is no toddler.

      I understand the urge, believe me. My first reaction was to go running after them and choke the shit out of them. But that only teaches that might is right.

      • http://none.com James Versluis

        Sorry to be late responding. I don’t know what “threat of assault applies one way” means. Are you saying spanking is assault? It is obviously nothing of the kind.

        Spanking teaches that “what I did was wrong, so wrong I get paddled”. Absolutely no child EVER uses paddling as a philosophical rumination on might versus right. Ever. In the history of the world no boy has ever gotten his ass beat and said “I hereby conclude that due to the monopoly of violence and its arbitrary application by adults, that I live in a Hobbeasian world”, then took from that lessons of un-moral character. That is absurd.

        The more you speak the more I think you’re under and overreacting: you want to potentially send boys to get assraped in prison, on record for violence for his whole life, all before you find out if a simple yelling and paddling will set them right? For something that could have been just offhand remarks.

        Maybe it was offhand, maybe it wasn’t: the beauty of a spanking is that it shows there’s consequences either way, but doesn’t mark them for life.

        I’m sorry, children do not learn lessons or ruminate about the nature of life over paddlings. The only lessons they learn are very specific and the ones you tell them they’re getting paddled for. It’s a nice thought, and there are millions of assholes and bitches who should never have the option, but those are the people who shouldn’t have children in the first place. Spanking is not hitting. Just like “hey baby! Wooo! Lookin’ good!” is not rape.

  • http://uncabob.blogspot.com/ Bob Wallace

    I’ve written about this several times: one of the main tenets of chivalry (not the Manosphere misunderstanding/perversion of it) was an armed man willing to do violence to protect the weak and/or helpless.

    • Sting Chameleon

      The concept of chivalry you have showcased in your comment warped into something very different, and that’s what gets attacked in the Manosphere. Chivalry became subservience to women, and that must be stamped out.

      • http://uncabob.blogspot.com/ Bob Wallace

        One characteristic of the original code of chivalry was that a man did not is behavior or character to have sex with a lot of women. That’s why I have no use for these PUA types. I’ve met several of them, and and not so surprisingly, they’ve all cowards and liars. I can think of two very popular PUA sites, both of whom are always pontificating about the true nature of men and women, and I wouldn’t trust either of these guys any farther than I could throw them.

        • GrimGhost

          “PUA” = ???

          • angelowal

            I’m guessing – pick-up-artists = PUA

  • baldandangry

    You handled things a lot better than I would have. My first reaction would probably be to find the parents and pay them a visit. Obviously this kind of crap has been happening for years but to take it to the level of threatening sexual assault on someone is insane. And to hear that it’s happened before to other girls and nothing was said is equally disturbing.

  • Nergal

    ” Mr. JB, JudgyAsshole and BigMike all responded the exact same way: little boys who talk like men need to run into a few men and learn a thing or two about owning your words. They seriously wanted to find the boys and beat the shit out of them.”

    This is really the best way to handle it. It used to be your dad that set you straight when you fucked up, then it was your older brother, now it’s the state,and they do a piss poor job of it.

    One has to make a sober judgment about the facts of the case,usually prompted by a lengthy interrogation, and if guilt is determined, a thrashing or a flogging/caning will usually do just fine. These boys come from a culture that doesn’t raise them to be men.And they don’t do a very good job of it themselves.

    There’s never any excuse for anyone to threaten to rape someone.

    • Nergal

      I also wanted to add that this doesn’t teach young boys to use force to get what they want, it teaches them to fear and respect the heirarchy and their place in it.Rape is not a masculine behavior,it is an animalistic behavior.A reasonable beating can set a lot of that straight,in my opinion,but it only works if it is administered by the people the young man aspires to replace in society, and it only works if the punishment is just.

      • http://judgybitch.wordpress.com judgybitch

        … it only works if it is administered by the people the young man aspires to replace in society

        Because of my very violent family history, I have a hard time with this subject. One thing I insisted upon with Mr. JB is that we would never, ever hit our children, nor would we allow anyone else to.

        He was and is fine with that. Our children have never been spanked, ever.

        Having said that, fastforward a few years. If it was our own son who made these kinds of threats, thinking that made him tough and cool, and Mr.JB felt that a good beating was in order, I MIGHT back down.

        I wouldn’t like it, but there are lots of things I don’t like.

        At the end of the day, I would trust my husband’s judgement about how to deal with the situation.

        I have a hard time imagining my son behaving this way, and I have an even harder time picturing his dad ever hitting him.

        But I will at least consider the possibility that as a man, Mr. JB might have a better idea about how to deal with things.

        It’s a very hard subject.

        • Xayadvara

          “Because of my very violent family history, I have a hard time with this subject.”

          Though I disagree with you on the subject of spanking, I can understand your stance as my grandmother was very much in this line and it might be the reason my own mother is comparatively reluctant to do this in our case.

          But spanking is used enough in our culture and though it will create the opposite effect when going out of hand, when used with reserve, it goes well – especially in the boy’s case as we understand that some actions went out of the line and though we feel negatively about our father, later we will come to realize the value of it. I have to say that as a man, my father’s harsh stance then helped me a lot to solidify into an individual who can stand on his own now.

          Slightly off-topic but do you send your son for martial arts?? You can ask Mr JB here – the teenage years for boys does have an element of violence in it – though its mostly based on pure energy surges one way or the other. This particular “violence” is expressed through negative ways if an existing channel is not there to funnel it constructively. I remember this stage when we channeled it out against each other at carnivals – the pure self-confidence that you derive when you can use your body like a weapon (it’s like you are starting to open your eyes to the power you possess which is your own) and the brotherhood you feel with your friends in the middle of blows (it sort of strengthens the bond when you share the ‘getting thrashed together’), its sort of like a high – maybe Mr JB can explain it to you better here. If you could provide your son an outlet to bring it all out during those years and tame it out in the open, the boost to his own personality and confidence is out of the world for a boy at that age.

          • Vladimir

            I couldn’t agree more. Practicing martial arts is the best way for a boy to grow up normally in a feminist society and with a pansy-ass school system. That male energy doesn’t go away with drugs and therapy, it needs to be directed somewhere. People who are trained in martial arts are far less violent.
            Plus, he’ll be in good physical condition (health + looks) and the confidence of knowing how to fight will help him with girls (note: he won’t actually fight).

          • http://judgybitch.wordpress.com judgybitch

            Definitely in our plans. BigMike, a good friend of the family, practices a type of Russian mixed martial arts, and he suggests waiting until LittleDude is at least 8 and can completely comprehend that he can really hurt someone.

            He’s still at the age where putting his little sister in a chokehold might be tempting.

            One more year.

            My girls will be taking classes, too.

            Actually we all will. It’s a sport/art that the whole family can do and there are several gyms that have family classes – the kids in one class and the adults in another, at the same time.

        • Nergal

          I have a similar family history.

          While I would never abuse my kids,if I could determine beyond a reasonable doubt that my son made a threat of rape for no reason(Alright,I said there was no excuse, but I might make an exception if a girl threatened to castrate him or something like that. That would be every bit as serious as rape or rape threats. It wouldn’t excuse a rape threat,but would shed a different light on the matter.), I would beat his ass with a belt or cane for sure.

          Because of my experiences,I go nuclear about the victimization of the weak or helpless. I would not tolerate my son abusing his children (even if he was an adult,I’d still kick his ass), and I would not tolerate him threatening gang rape against a younger girl.

          I see spanking or whipping a child for a very serious offense in a different light from abuse. I believe that is NOT abuse,but instilling morality,or at the least, a fear of his superiors,who are usually more moral, into the child.

          As a child, I was often punched in the face by grown men,or thrown to the ground and stomped on by them.

          I never bore them any ill will when I was beaten with a belt for something I actually did,but I wanted to murder them for punching me in the face and stomping on me for no reason.

          I can see why you’d shy away from spanking (Like me,you probably have a gut-level fear of going over the line and would hate yourself for it), and if you feel like you can’t administer corporal punishment responsibly-that is, when the child is certainly guilty of a very serious offense (and to spank or whip only as much as necessary to instill guilt and fear,but not to needlessly traumatize) , you probably shouldn’t do it.

          I have no doubt that you and your husband are fine parents and that in this case what you and your children say happened actually did happen.

          I understand the fears that some of your commenters have about your actions contributing to an environment where men are persecuted mostly for being men and the fostering of rape hysteria and witch hunts, but when it is truly justified,your actions would not be out of line. You are a fine woman,your husband seems to be an honorable and upstanding gentleman,and your children were harassed by hoodlums. I was also harassed by hoodlums as a child. It sounds like typical hoodlum bullshit to me.

          I’m not looking to protect or encourage hoodlums. I want to encourage and protect men and masculinity, and rape threats and victimization of the innocent doesn’t comport with that mission.

          Because my enemies know this about me, and all men, it’s sometimes difficult to know when a rape threat is a rape threat or when abuse is abuse,because of all the lies they tell. That is where character comes in.

          Your and your husband’s fine character speaks for you,and until proven otherwise, I have no choice but to accept your version of events and to see your actions as at least somewhat justified,because you seem to have your head on straight about these matters.

          I have to be judicious. The political and social climate for men sucks,I could go to jail or even prison because of a false rape claim at any time. I would STILL rather suffer that indignity myself than see your daughters raped because punishment or scrutiny was too lax for rapists. At the same time, it is likely that actions like these are becoming normalized because too many men were falsely accused of rape and decided they might as well do the crime if they’re going to do the time.

          I know for a fact that if these kids had responsible fathers in their lives,this situation would never have taken place,as your husband’s instinctive reactions attest. That’s why I say that if these kids’ fathers or older brothers were to set them straight for this kind of stuff, it would really be the best option out of all those available. I wish it were as simple as admonishing men to be better men, but society is a large part of the reason why this behavior doesn’t get the corrective response it deserves.

          I think you and your husband did the best you could with the options available to you.

          • http://judgybitch.wordpress.com judgybitch

            Thank you.

          • Wraith

            Nergal’s got it right. I was disciplined physically when I acted the fool, and I was also abused when Mom had a bad day.

            I know the difference. I knew it then, and I know it now. I’m thankful for the ass-whoopings I got when I deserved them. The other ones? Well, it took a long time and the guiding hand of Christ to forgive them.

            But there IS a difference, one that even an animal can comprehend. I understand that your history can and does color your perception, but not all violence is bad. It is 100% dependent on the context.

            May God bless you and your little ones, and may He guide those boys in His ways that they might become real men.

  • Z

    First, I’m sorry this happened, and you know feminists would use this as a “See??? Men are Dangerous!!! PATRIARCHY!” They just flat out don’t get they are creating self-fulfilling prophecies with their bullshit and hate.

    Second, THIS is how you parent. Kudos! Being involved. Being protective. Being proactive. If people can’t parent like this, they shouldn’t have kids. Especially not in this F’d up world.

    I don’t think it’s wrong to opt-out of parenting in THIS world, but dude… if you take it on… be aware of the crap you have to be responsible for now!

  • http://nydotuesdaydivisionbstats.wordpress.com LostSailor

    Terrible incident, but you certainly handled it appropriately. If, as you indicate, these little miscreants actually have parents, plural, their fathers will step up and teach them something about being a man. Not necessarily holding my breath.

    More to the point, the little dickwads committed a number of potential criminal acts. Depending on the jurisdiction, the threat could constitute assault, not to mention several violations of narcotics statutes of varying severity if they offered actual crack.

    And the reaction of Mr. JB, et al., is entirely understandable, even if acting on it would not be advisable.

    However, should you decide to outsource such action, say to someone from a big, anonymous urban area, give a shout. I know people…

  • http://gravatar.com/jeremyrainman Jeremy

    This incident brings up a very narrow line to walk actually. On the one hand, it may have been a comment made by a stupid kid trying to just sound mean and tough, and you’ve brought down the law on him. If that’s the case, you’ve probably only re-enforced any feelings of social inadequacy he might have about himself as a man. This kid might possibly have been only trying to verbally bully your kids using any means they could. The behavior was despicable, and the threat should be taken seriously.

    However, when you expose young boys like that to a “beatdown” from the “law”, they can only start thinking of themselves as no good, and the people who brought the law on them as oppressors.

    Frankly, I think the best way to handle this sort of interaction is with a good old-fashioned, schoolyard fight. Now, if your kids are too young/small to win that fight, well then I have no good solution. But honestly, I think this case would have been best served with those two kids getting stood up to right then and there, in the street, for their atrocious behavior.

    That’s just IMHO.

  • http://captainspirou.wordpress.com captainspirou

    I like the lesson you are teaching to your kids is to treat these people as individuals and not irrationally hate a whole group. Instead of saying “be careful of men, they rape” or “be careful of black people, they’re dangerous” I feel like the lesson you are teaching is “be careful of bad people, they exist”. It’s much better then the standard feminists answer to teach boys not to rape. Also ironic since feminism claims to be against stereotypes and treating women as individuals. The self-fulfilling prophecy of teaching all boys that they are potential rapists reminds me of the ‘Stereotype effect’, which is when people would tend to conform to a stereotype if they believe it’s true. If you hear something enough then it shouldn’t be a surprise if they take ownership of that label.

    While I don’t know if integrating is the best course of action, I do know that separation is what is contributing to reinforcing those attitudes of any group. If these boys were in separate schools with only thugs and they actually were rewarded for that behavior by other thugs, I would see that as much worse in the long run. They might have gone through school without really learning that this is unacceptable behavior. At least in this case they know. Not only that but by integrating, the more affluent side is forced to consider the problems facing the other side because their problems are your problems too.

    I do think that we tend to always tell people what they can’t do instead of what they can do. My bet is that the people that want to punish these kids with a heavy hand would then just leave them alone afterwards. Basically the same as saying “You can’t do this shitty thing but YOU figure out the rest.” Did that really make the situation better? Do these kids realize it’s possible to have a productive crack-free, rape-free future from that beating? Instead of stopping their behavior it probably just teaches them not to get caught. I totally understand the response Mr. JB has but I also believe it causes more problems then it solves. They would look at him as the ‘enemy’ instead of a role-model. I would love it if they had the wisdom to interpret that beating as someone just protecting their family but I doubt their thinking is that lucid. Your approach involving the parents and the schools is more about identifying the problems then just punishment. A tactic that I think is much more effective in the end.

  • angelowal

    JB, so sorry about that incident last week! I totally empathize and agree with your courses of action, with but one caveat: I presume that you and Mr. JB kept your cool in front of the kids and privately railed in fury.

    Here’s my personal perspective: I spent my childhood in Colonial West Africa where, like all Europeans there at that time, we had several servants living on our compound. At the very innocent age of 12 I suffered a distressing few months when our cook/steward repeatedly accosted me whenever he caught me alone. He’d appear behind me and ‘touch’ me, fondle and stroke me and kiss my neck. It froze me with fear, not knowing what to do. I was afraid to tell my parents as I knew that my dad would kill the man, so I handled it myself by trying so hard to never be alone in the steward’s presence. That often meant that I couldn’t even go into the kitchen to get a drink because he’d trap me between the fridge and its open door. My mother would often reprimand me for my apparent ‘bad manners’ when the steward was serving us. I was never ill-mannered with anyone, but she never sensed the reason for my discomfort. Fortunately, my dad retired from Colonial Service after that year, so I never had to go back.

    I never ever told my dad about this, and years later, well into adulthood, I did tell my mother. She told me that I done the right thing by not saying anything to them as I was correct, my dad would have killed the man.

    Rightly, or mistakenly, kids are intuitively protective of their parents. If a child understands that her parent will behave in an irrational or destructive way when told of something grave, then chances are pretty great that the child will not turn to that parent when needed.

    Parenting is not simple or easy and mistakes can be so very far-reaching.

    • http://judgybitch.wordpress.com judgybitch

      Oh crap!

      Are you saying our kids want us to kill people?

      Ha ha.

      I’m just kidding.

      But you make an excellent point. It wasn’t necessarily shame or some internalized misogynistic values that led the girls to say nothing, but a sense of wanting to protect their parents.

      And your experience sounds pretty scary. I would have peed my pants.

  • http://redpilltheory.wordpress.com Red Pill Theory

    We have a similar welfare program in the states. Section 8. People hate it when the underclass come into the suburbs, but I actually think it serves a valuable purpose. There’s so many portrayals of poverty and gangsterism on TV that make it seem positive. But when kids come face with this stuff in the real world, it doesn’t look like so much fun.

  • lelnet

    Wow. 12 year-old boys from an identifiable racial minority threaten to rape your daughter, and the school and police take it seriously, instead of calling you and your kids paranoid racists and sending them to mandatory “sensitivity training”?

    I want to live where you live.

  • Viktor

    And you’re so sure that your daughter is not to blame AT ALL because…?
    Let’s see… those boys are 12. They’re just starting to enter puberty. That means, developing their sexuality and stuff. Its natural.
    So when a 11 year old girl comes by and hits on them, flirting with them – even indirectly – it is only natural for them to build a valve for their sexual lust. Maybe she has also provoked them in some way, this would explain their aggressive reaction.

    Yes, your child is already able to feel and develop sexual lust, as much as these boys. Whether you like it or not.

    So tell me again, how can you be so sure that your daughter is NOT to blame? How can you be so sure that she hasn’t provoked them in some kind of way, or flirted with them?

    Maybe you should have talked to your daughter about this before flipping out and calling the police, because 2 young boys apparently either wanted to have a bit of fun, or just felt provoked.
    You’re overreacting.

    • http://judgybitch.wordpress.com judgybitch

      I’m not sure how you could construe “don’t talk to them and don’t trust them” as flirting…

      She definitely provoked them …. by basically calling them untrustworthy dirtbags.

      Which, it turns out, they were.

      The correct response was for the boys to throw a snowball or call her ugly, neither of which would have gotten much of a response from me.

      But gang rape?

      Nope. I didn’t over react at all.

      • Just a kid

        Total over reaction. A threat from a twelve year old, whether it’s taking lunch money or ejaculating on your corpse, is just a hollow threat. You can change the words with whatever imagination or cultural influence exists, but the concept of a hollow threat is congruent.

        • http://judgybitch.wordpress.com judgybitch

          Sadly, low income kids report the average age of their first sexual encounter to be 12 years of age.

          http://archive.news.iastate.edu/news/2009/aug/teensex

          Obviously, that doesn’t make them rapists, and the vast majority of them will never even threaten rape because being low-income doesn’t make you a criminal or an asshole.

          I don’t think I was wrong to take the threat seriously, meaning I wanted some information to conduct a threat assessment.

        • Fuzzy Dunlop

          “A threat from a twelve year old, whether it’s taking lunch money or ejaculating on your corpse, is just a hollow threat.”

          Incredibly nai’ive way of thinking. Some 12-year olds are fucking huge and if raised wrong, violent and full of attitude. Hell, some 5-year olds from my daycare would kick the living shit out of the smallest 3rd graders and yell ‘Fuck you faggot!’ after.

          • http://gravatar.com/poester99 poester99

            I agree about the over-reaction. I received and gave many “death” threats when I was that age. I neither fully understood nor had the capacity to make good on the threats and none of the other children ever did, surprise, surprise.

            I bet that is one reason why the US is the world leader that throwing young men in prison?

            Thinking back to 12 years old..
            We never considered making rape threats, it didn’t even reach our consciousness. I think it’s because of the pushing of the the use and contemplation of that word into the mainstream, allegedly as an integral part of masculinity.

            I’ve actually heard my stepdaughter say it once or twice in jest amongst her friends. As long as the word continues to have a real and horrible meaning, I don’t think that this is a good development.

          • X Y Zed

            poester, when I was 12, like you, the word “rape” was also not in my consciousness or vocabularly. Kids are being exposed through our increasingly pornified mainstream media to words and concepts they don’t yet have the maturity to absorb correctly. Its like we are losing all innocence as a culture. And by culture I mean probably almost globally, a globalized pornified culture, “thanks” to the internet’s globaliation and exporting of porn to almost every nook and corner of the planet. So its not just Western Civilization that is being corrupted, we are corrupting the entire planet along with us.

            We can pretty much assume that by mid teens innocence is completely lost. But my god, little kids 12 and under? We shouldn’t tolerate that. But its seems we are.

      • Quinn

        I’m with you on this one, JB. I’d have done exactly the same thing. Except I’d have also pulled the little shits’ arms off.

        In my opinion, you kind of under-reacted.

    • Vanessa

      Firstly, the kid was not flirting (does it suggest anywhere in this writing that she did?). Secondly, no egregious level of flirtation ever warrants or legitimates threats of rape.

    • Dustin Gray

      Little Dude and Pinky were walking home, like many siblings at that age do. How exactly can you warp your mind and say that she is guilty of anything. Sounds to me she acted with a great deal of maturity and acted as any older sibling should. JB and Mr.JB have done a great job, as to the two little bastard’s, well speaking as someone who can remember being a 12 year old boy, I would have gotten my ass tanned with a leather belt had i done anything like that. It is a real shame when parent’s are not allowed to discipline their children. I hope the parent’s of these kid’s take stock of the situation they are in and act accordingly.

  • Navian

    Disturbing? Yes. But why is everyone so shocked. It sounds like a couple of 12 year olds acting “Gangsta” hey the chicks usually dig it. They are acting out what is cool. They are also internalizing self hate as black and male (cocks blown off as humor) I do not claim to know how the best way to turn them around,hopefully their families will wake up, focus and work on preventing them from ruin and the hurting of others. Having said that, any adult actually assaulting 12 years old would also be facing some hardcore Irish fury.

  • Theo P.

    Your response seemed a smidge extreme to me at first, but they were beyond the pale in a way that’s a little too spot-on. I hope as you do that they take the right lesson from this.

    It’s funny how we can react to basically the same stimulus in very different ways. The sane thing to do when entering a high-risk area is to make yourself the smallest target possible.

    Exempla Gratis: even though everybody who touches the mail is an employee of the Postal Service, and there are strict, federal laws against tampering with the mail, people still steal cash from envelopes all the time.
    Sane Response: you don’t send cash in the mail. Either use a “security guard”–a check or money order requires a face-to-face interaction and a secondary act of fraud to profit from–or AT LEAST cover up–put the cash in a security envelope and wrap it in a piece of paper. Thieves are visual responders. They can’t steal what they can’t see. If you send cash in the mail, and a mail worker steals it, everyone from the average Joe to law enforcement will call you a dumbass and leave it at that.

    But somehow, when it comes to protecting your sexuality in a far harsher and virtually unregulated environment, the exact opposite rules should apply? We all knew that slutwalking was a completely insane response, but a relatable point of comparison really throws that into light.

  • X Y Zed

    Fifth grade boys?! I had not idea what gang rape was in the fifth grade, nor any idea about drugs.

    “WHY WOULD YOU SAY SUCH A THING? ”

    That’s easy. Our media and pop culture. The radio, the TV, the internet, movies, you name it, violence in general and sexual violence in general are all over it, now more than ever.

    Children are not only sexualized at ever increasing younger ages but they are violently sexualized, meaning their idea of sex is no longer romantic love making with the girl/guy you have a crush on but engaging in violent sexual acts.

    Thankyou porn industry!

    And by porn industry I mean mainstream media because our mainstream media has been completely pornified.

    The only 2 points here I do not understand are the “high liability” of the school and
    “My second call was to the police, who took the threats very seriously, and once I identified the kids as being part of a particularly troubled social group, they moved my case to top priority and dispatched officers to take statements from the kids. ”

    1. How or why would the school be liable for the off campus behaviour of students and
    2. Do you think if these kids were not identified as being a part of a “particularly troubled social group” or if they in fact had not been part of that group, that the police would still move the case to top priority?

  • X Y Zed

    Good world JB

    • X Y Zed

      I meant good work. And the great thing is – this is community action. These kids are seeing community in action. People who have each others backs. Although I get why posters think calling the police is extreme, the cops used their heads and hearts and instead of criminalizing or felonizing these kids, just gave them a visit and a serious talking to. That scare will make an impression on these boys’ brains and they will think twice before acting out of pocket from here on out.

      This is what kids sometimes need – a good scaring.

      Now, were they really in possesion of crack or just faking it?

      “It makes me absolutely sick to think that twelve year old boys have internalized such awful images of masculinity. What kind of media are they being exposed to?”

      Hip hop. Which you said you were a huge fan of.

      • http://judgybitch.wordpress.com judgybitch

        You mean like this:

        Nas. I Can.

        I know I can (I know I can)
        Be what I wanna be (be what I wanna be)
        If I work hard at it (If I work hard at it)
        I’ll be where I wanna be (I’ll be where I wanna be)

        Be, B-Boys and girls, listen up
        You can be anything in the world, in God we trust
        An architect, doctor, maybe an actress
        But nothing comes easy it takes much practice
        Like, I met a woman who’s becoming a star
        She was very beautiful, leaving people in awe
        Singing songs, Lina Horn, but the younger version
        Hung with the wrong person
        Got her strung on that
        Heroin, cocaine, sniffin up drugs all in her nose…
        Coulda died, so young, now looks ugly and old
        No fun cause now when she reaches for hugs people hold they breath
        Cause she smells of corrosion and death
        Watch the company you keep and the crowd you bring
        Cause they came to do drugs and you came to sing
        So if you gonna be the best, I’ma tell you how,
        Put your hands in the air, and take a vow

  • X Y Zed

    “good parents are 90 percent of the equation. ”

    Don’t agree. Its closer to 50 %. In Western society youth are more influenced by their peers and mass media than by their familial elders.

    I had great, morally upright parents but I still did a few immoral, riskly, borderline illegal things in my teens. And I was a mild nerdy type and voted most individualistic in my high school graduation year book.

    Had nothing to do with my parents and everything to do with my peers and the pop culture I was exposed to, especially the music scene, even though peer pressure was no where near the factor in my “individualistic” life as it was in the lives of the popular sheeple kids.

    “Heroin, cocaine, sniffin up drugs all in her nose”

    You really think this line doesn’t stand out to kids listening to this stuff?

    Even so called “conscious hip hop” where they are criticizing bad behaviour, young kids just hear the bad behaviour. Like I said, when I was 11 and 12 I had no idea what cocaine and heroin was but if I were listen to the above type music, I would have.
    Even though “bitch” and “ho” are referring to actual mean women and real prostitutes who turn tricks, the entire culture now refers to regular women as bitch and ho.

    Our culture has lost its innocence and grace.

    If you don’t want your kids growing up to be unecessarily aggressive then don’t expose them to unnecessarily aggressive media.

    Its enough that on the school campus and in the streets they will be exposed to our degenerate mass media created for the collective mass mind, so why not make the home a sanctuary of peace, positivity and high culture?

  • X Y Zed

    I also wonder if they had threatened a girl from their own ethnic community if the police would have sprung to action or just written it off as something minor.

    I mean, I do think you did the right thing, and I think the cops did the right thing. I would just hope they would do the right thing if the scenario was like I posited above too.

  • http://traditionalchristianity.wordpress.com/ Laceagate

    JB, regardless of whether or not anyone thinks you “overreacted,” the truth is no actions are bereft of responsibility. Your daughter was right in alerting you to what happened, as her younger brother was present, and you were within your rights to contact the school, police, and other sources to ensure that her safety would not be jeopardized.

    I said before that no actions are bereft of responsibility. These boys needed to learn what the consequences of their actions were. They were under the impression that they could continue to get away with it because the other girls didn’t say anything. It was unintentional positive reinforcement. Now I hope they hopefully know better, but it’s because they’ve learned what the consequences are– and they are serious. But it shouldn’t have gotten to this point and needed to be addressed earlier. For all we know, it could have been due to the previous girls thinking adults would say they were “overreacting.”

    When we live under the impression that a parent is “overreacting” to his or her daughter’s peers threatening rape, we shouldn’t be surprised that children around the same age and younger are toting guns and demanding adults to get out of their cars, or throwing violent fits at school and then need to get arrested, or are walking up to adults and threatening to mug them.

    Quite frankly, you did the right thing considering even the liberals use sources like this to back up their claims. Overreacting? Ha! Not even.

  • http://themalesofgames.blogspot.com TheMalesOfGames

    It amazes me that people consider your actions to be an overreaction. It was exactly the right response. These weren’t two kids threatening your son and daughter with the threat of being beaten up, which, while bad, definitely would’ve called for a lesser response. Maybe that would’ve been the time to send “Mr. JB, JudgyAsshole and BigMike” to have a quiet word. However, your children were threatened with two very serious crimes and you had no way of knowing if they intended to follow through or not.

    A suspension and a visit from the police is the perfect way to put the fear of God into those two twelve-year-old boys. To know that what they’re doing has repercussions and isn’t just a harmless chuckle. That, incidentally, is why I think they did what they did. It sounds like they haven’t been taught any better. I doubt they’ve had anything close to that level of punishment for their actions and that can scare any twelve-year-old from a good home straight. Let’s see if they do it again.

    Oh, and from what little I know about Mr. JB, I don’t think he’d have harmed those kids. I’d have been as furious as him but if I was face-to-face with them? I doubt I’d hurt them.

  • X Y Zed

    ” When I spoke to the police officers after they had visited the boys at home with their parents, they felt the boys had little comprehension of what they were saying…”

    This is my point wrt media like music that kids are exposed to. They don’t have clear ideas about what they are seeing or hearing, but if they see and hear it enough, continuously over years as their brains are developing, the violent lyrics and images create patterns. This is why I’m extremely careful of what I expose my kids to in our home. I know I can’t completely control what they get exposed to outside of it, but at least when they walk through our doors, the sights and sounds they will be downloading into their brains are of a high quality.

    Since they hear chatter, chatter, chatter, when they are on the outside engaging with other people and media, in our home I make sure they get to hear the beauty of instrumental music sans chatter lyrics.

    Another thing is that the Manosphere of course sees this situation as nothing more than a “feminazi” mom teaching her spoiled little princess that “all males are potential rapists”. They think you should have let it go because “boys will be boys” and boys are harmless innocent little angels, all of them. Somehow its always feminism’s fault, if not women’s fault in general.

    • Bellion

      {Another thing is that the Manosphere of course sees this situation as nothing more than a “feminazi” mom teaching her spoiled little princess that “all males are potential rapists”. They think you should have let it go because “boys will be boys” and boys are harmless innocent little angels, all of them. Somehow its always feminism’s fault, if not women’s fault in general.}

      Gonna have to call BS on that one. From what I gather, most of the manosphere advocates teaching people how they can defend themselves from situations like rape and assault, rather than state “all X are innocent” (opposed to all X are potential and should be treated as such). I’d seriously doubt you’d be able to find very many people with the viewpoint you’ve just laid out. Most sensible people would agree with the actions taken by JB, although there might be a bit of debate about the extent.

  • LC

    I don’t think you overreacted. Threatening to break into a young girl’s house and rape her is a serious threat. And it’s even more heinous that they’re so young and have already been thinking about doing this sort of thing. Better safe than sorry. I know when I was in kindergarten, some 5th grade boys beat me up on the school bus on the first day of school. My Dad spent a lot of time teaching me how to defend myself, and when they came after me again, it wasn’t pleasant for them. It’s not like these kids were going to leave your daughter alone after that threat. Bullies only up the ante if they’re not confronted.